Interviews

Jessica Zweig:

You have been speaking to audiences since you were four years old, and you’ve been spreading this message of peace for a very long time.

And I think, today, more than ever before—and I wasn’t around fifty years ago—but there is just so much more to consume ourselves with. And I think it’s harder and harder to get in touch with that dreamer. And we don’t give ourselves the permission to do that.

You know, most of us wake up, check our phones, eat breakfast while we’re checking our phones, rush to work on our phones, get to our office and—and are, you know, inundated all day long. And then we come home and by the end of the day, we’re just exhausted.

And there’s—it’s just so hard, especially in modern society in America—in the West, at least, where finding this space to know the dreamer has just become harder. I would imagine, since the time you’ve started your career, you’ve seen so much more happening in the world. And how do we mitigate against that? How do we technically do that?

Prem Rawat:

Well, the thing is, there are problems that have arisen in society. And the problems that have arisen in society are that people are not understanding not only themselves, but they’re not understanding other people.

To me, you know, when people talk about the problems that are happening in.... The fire season is on in California, by the way. And I don’t know if, on the East Coast, they’re listening to the news that, you know, “This part of California’s on fire; that part of California’s on fire.”

And imagine, on one hand, you have California on fire. On the other hand, you have a bunch of refugees who are traveling from their country towards central Europe—and they are in dire straits.

And there is a person in California whose house is in fire and they’re in dire straits. And there is a tornado in the panhandle of Florida that has just demolished this person’s house. And they are emotionally distraught and they’re—everything that they worked for is just, this little tornado came and destroyed it.

Is there a similarity? Is there a similarity between that guy watching his house being burned down, another one in the panhandle who’s just watching his house being disintegrated, and a person who is of a totally different religion, totally different faith, on a boat, taking on the waves and in dire straits because, are they going to make it? And when they make it, are they going to be let in? I mean, they have no choice to go back. It’s a horrible situation.

Then you’ve got all these refugees who are not being allowed, being shoved further and further south of even, you know, Mexico and Honduras and so many other countries, and it’s like, “Go away; go away; go away.” Is there a similarity?

And is there a similarity in all the oceans being riddled with plastic? And is there a problem with the Amazon forests being destroyed, every square inch of them being potentially on the list of being absolutely destroyed?

And I say, “Yes, there is; there is a common thread. And the common thread is the human being. The pain and sorrow that is being caused, is being caused by human beings and is being suffered by human beings.”

And so, human beings are the common denominator in all these problems. And yet, what is the problem with the human being? I mean, isn’t it wonderful that we can do all these things that we have done? I mean, after all, human beings have done some pretty incredible things.

Mind you, we have wiped out a bunch of diseases that existed; we have gone to the moon; I mean, my God, we can communicate; we have done a lot of wonderful things.

But by the same token, have we done something that is wrong? And the answer to that is, “Absolutely!” And we continue to do it, because we don’t see it. We don’t see. What we don’t see, we cannot correct.

And what we don’t see in our lives so much is, “My life is limited. My life on this planet Earth is limited.” I mean, if you were to take.... Even if you were to live a hundred years, how long is that in days? Thirty-six thousand five hundred. Now, thirty-six thousand five hundred is not a very long time at all!

When you think about it—I mean, it’s like, “And wait a minute; maybe, maybe I misplaced a zero, right? Three hundred and sixty-five?” No! It’s actually thirty-six thousand five hundred. And that’s if you get to live for a hundred years—a hundred years.

My God, that’s still, you know—anybody who crosses the hundred-year boundary—at least, in Japan—gets a, you know, recognition from the government.

So, it is still a novelty, and yet it is such a short time on the face of this earth. Well, who are you? What are you all about? Are you about all your problems? Are you the creator of all your problems in your life and that’s it? Or are you something more? Can you offer yourself some help?

And what I’m saying is that “Of course you can—and you are your salvation.” You are your salvation. You don’t need an angel to come down from the heavens to take care of your problems. You are the ones who are going to take care of your problems.

And the way you’re going to do it, it’s by starting to look around; it’s by starting to see—not close your eyes, but by looking around.

Your life, your understanding, every single day, saying, “Who am I? What am I about? What is my relationship with everything that I live in? In my house, my children, my husband, my boyfriend, my person who I work with, what is my relationship with these people?”

And to really bring it home that you are here—and you can make a difference and you’re going to make a difference. But the difference you’re going to make is from the simplest little things in your life. And that’s where you’re going to begin.

Jessica Zweig:

Yes, so true. It’s beautifully said. I’m just so aligned. Because I literally just recorded an episode myself of my show about the power and the responsibility that we all have to impact the world, ourselves—that we actually have the ability to do that.

And, you know, my show is about personal branding and giving people the tools to help them put themselves out on a stage, whatever that stage might be, with a positive message that comes from their hearts.

But what I love about what you’re saying so much, Prem, is that finding peace within yourself isn’t a passive act, actually; it’s a very empowered decision. And that taking true responsibility for yourself is your biggest job.

I can speak to a retreat that I took, a women’s retreat I went on a few years ago, and I was in total victim mentality, thinking that everything was happening to me. It was my husband’s fault; it was my job’s fault; it was the weather’s fault; it was the time of the year’s fault—it was everyone else’s fault but mine.

And I was probably the most depressed I had been in a long time. And in just a matter of a few days in this retreat, I worked with, you know, all of these amazing women coaches who kind of woke me up—that it’s no one’s, no one’s fault but mine to let myself be and feel this way. And that taking total, unapologetic, radical responsibility for your life is the path to peace.

Would you agree with that?

Prem Rawat:

I would like to add something to it. I mean, once you have defined that something is wrong—and then you say, “Okay, I’m going to correct it,” that’s not peace. Peace is much more fundamental than that.

Because these situations—for instance, you know, if your relationship with your husband is really bad and you go, “Okay, if I fix my relationship with my husband, everything will be fine.” But there was a time you weren’t married. And you still needed peace. And how will you get peace if you’re not even married and you can’t fix that problem because you don’t have a husband?

But peace goes beyond that threshold. And peace gets to the very fundamental of life itself. What is life itself? What is your definition of life itself?

When you wake up in the morning, you think about all the things you’re going to do. Do you think about all the things that you have to do—and that one fundamental thing that you have to do, just to breathe? And if you were just to stop breathing, you would be dead?

I mean, do you understand your existence, that you are alive? That this is a gift that you are being given? It has taken the whole universe to collude so that you can be alive today.

That you can be alive today! You were in the making for millions and billions and billions and billions and billions of years. Do you accept that as a gift? Do you even see that as a gift?

Or do you see your problems going away as a gift? Because, if you see your problems going away as a gift, you’re missing on life. You’re not missing on your, you know, what’s happening because you are alive, but you’re missing out on what life itself is.

And I want to always bring it home—to “we need to know what life itself is,” not “what you can accomplish because you are alive.”

There is a driver, and the driver has to pay attention to what the car is doing. There may be other passengers who can roll down their window and say, “Look over there; oh my God, oh my God,” but not that driver. The driver has to enjoy what he can enjoy whilst he is paying one hundred percent attention to his driving.

Because if he starts to lose that focus, an accident is imminent. And that accident that is imminent is the way I see the problems in our lives today. We’re having mini-accidents. Because we are not taking into account what is really, really important. And that thing is paying attention to who we really are.

Jessica Zweig

Host of The SimplyBe. Podcast

Jessica Zweig:

So, a lot of the people that listen to my show are entrepreneurs, particularly women, who are really wanting to follow their passion and grow a career and a life on their terms. I am one of those women, right?—and I feel we’ve subconsciously gotten sucked into a very hustle-oriented culture and mindset.

And that it’s celebrated to be a “girl-boss,” or it’s to slay like a queen, right? These are all images that are actually, in my opinion, really masculine and sort of out of alignment with, with who we are. But yet women are rising and we are becoming more empowered.

And I think that—and I truly speak for myself—a lot of that innate peace and that softness and that stillness really gets deprioritized. And I would love to know how—speaking to the women, mainly, that listen to my show—what advice do you have for them-slash-me on how to really incorporate and prioritize ourselves, the way that you’re speaking?

Prem Rawat:

Well, first of all, there is absolutely no conflict in, whatsoever, to have your ambitions fulfilled, the ambitions that you have. There’s no conflict. But you have to know one thing—and that one thing that you have to know is yourself.

You know a lot of things in this world. And you think that knowledge of these things will take you and fulfill you and fulfill your ambitions. But the thing is, that if you know everything but you don’t know who you are, who you are as a being, as that one person who took that first breath…

That you came out of your mother’s womb and you took that first breath, and you’re alive. And you’re alive. And that, one day, this whole chain of breath is going to keep on happening—and then one day this breath won’t be anymore. And everything you do, everything that you think will be gone one day.

But right now you’re alive. Who are you? That person that starts with that one breath—and their life ends with that other breath, that last breath—and in between, you have this fantastic possibility of life, of being alive, of being who you are, of fulfilling your dreams, of accomplishing all the things that you can, and only you can come up with.

And you are the one who, in your life, makes all the difference to yourself. Then, who are you? What are you? Not the dream fulfiller, but the dreamer. I’m talking about the dreamer, not the dream fulfiller.

And everybody wants to become the dream fulfiller. And nobody’s paying attention to the dreamer. I’m talking about the dreamer. I’m talking about the innate thirst that you have in you.

That you feel that by fulfilling all your ambitions, one day you will be fulfilled—that person who carries those ambitions, that’s the person I’m talking about.

And the rest of it, I don’t see a conflict, even though I talk about peace. And a lot of people might just go, “How can you say that?” Because I don’t—I don’t see a conflict, you know?

Somebody, one time, came to me and said, “Oh, look at—I just bought a Rolls Royce. And do you think I should have one? I’m looking for peace in my life; do you think I should have it?”

And I said, “So, what, what is the poor Rolls Royce going to do? It’s neither going to bring you peace nor is it going to take away your peace. Of course, enjoy it! You want to enjoy it, enjoy it. Do whatever you want to do.”

I’m not making any rules about what you should or shouldn’t do. All I am doing is saying one thing: “The dreamer that you are, you need to know that dreamer. You need to understand that dreamer.” Because if you don’t understand that dreamer, you won’t actually even know what that dreamer is trying to dream about.

Jessica Zweig:

I think it’s also gotten a lot more difficult to get in touch with who we truly are because of the sheer noise of life—technology, opportunity. The desire to know oneself is sort of trendy today. And I think that, in and of itself is overwhelming for people.

So, how do you tap in? What would be the first step?

Prem Rawat:

You’re absolutely right! People are so caught up in everything else that they have forgotten who they are. And so our journey must begin with first establishing base with ourselves—not with other things, not with other solutions, but with us, with us, just as an individual, just as who you are.

Continuing onscreen text:

SimplyBe. Podcast

Jessica Zweig, Host of The SimplyBe Podcast.

Interviews Prem Rawat, Author & Global Peace Ambassador

The SimplyBe. Podcast is a collection of conversations about building a business by knowing WHO YOU ARE at your core, and showing up as your true, unapologetic, authentic self.

Jessica interviews thought leaders, CEOs, and some of the most magnetic personal brands of today.

A Common Thread

Jessica Zweig:

Welcome to my show Prem; thank you so much for being with me today.

Prem Rawat:

It’s a great pleasure to be with you and with your audience and to share some insights. I’ve been doing this for quite a long time, and it’s just wonderful to help people all around the world who need help, who want to take some help.

Jessica Zweig:

I could not agree more. And it is; the honor and privilege is mine. I know you have a prolific career, over fifty years traveling the globe, speaking in over 250 cities, probably more, on this topic of peace and the universal desire that we all have for it. And I’d love for you to speak to that—why, why peace, Prem?

Prem Rawat:

Well, but, you know, so much of the education that we receive.... Because everything that we think we know is really something that has been added to us; this is not fundamentally what we knew when we were born.

We knew one thing when we were born, which is, "Give a cry if you need something, and if you are happy, go to sleep." And that’s how our lives actually started. And then it’s like, "Oh, I have to do this; I have to accomplish this; I have to succeed in this." All this was learnt later on.

And what does it mean when we learn all these things? Do we make a separation between these things and who we are? We don't! We think, "This is my idea; this is what I have to do." [Jessica: Umm.] And on we go!

And then, before you know it, we find ourselves in a very complicated situation. And the situation might be that we even have a job that’s bringing home the bread and butter, but we hate it; we hate it. And we hate going to our work every single day.

And there we are, caught in this paradox of “What do I do now?” Because I know that I have to get bread and butter home; maybe there are other people in my household who are relying on me to bring that bread and butter home, but something in me doesn’t want to do it. I don’t enjoy what I’m doing; I don’t enjoy being who I am; I don’t enjoy—"This is too much pressure; this is too much...."

And a lot of people, they go, "Okay, ahh...." All of a sudden one day, they find themselves walking on a road. And they find that a shoe that they’re wearing is full of a very sharp rock.

And instead of taking the time to remove the rock from the shoe and comfortably go on walking, they are like, "Well, give me an aspirin; give me something that’ll take away my pain; give me a band-aid; give me something because this is horrible."

And somebody comes along and says, "Well, you know, why are you taking all this medication? Why are you doing all this? Do you know why you’re doing this, because you don’t have to. All you have to do is take away that rock that’s in your shoe, and you will be comfortable again."

And sometimes it sounds so simple when you say it, but it's so complicated. With all the challenges that we have in our life, we find ourselves nailed against the wall sometimes. And we’re looking for a solution out of this misery. And yet it's just like, the more solutions we look to, the more complex those solutions are.

You know, it’s like, "Okay, sit down in a room—and don’t think about anything." And it’s like, "Control your thoughts."

And I remember, when I first came—I was a teenager when I first came to America; I was thirteen years old. And people much older than me and much more educated than me would sit down and go, "Okay, how do I control my thoughts?"

I said, "Well, why do you want to control your thoughts? I mean, what do you think you’re going to gain by controlling your thoughts? Don’t you understand that the desire to control your thought is a thought in itself?" [Jessica: Right.]

You’re still attached to the thought, and you’re going to be sitting there in some room, going, "Am I controlling my thoughts? Have I controlled my thoughts? Have my thoughts gone away?" And you’re going to be thinking about your thoughts going away. And so, how have you become thoughtless? You’re not thoughtless; you're still thinking.

And that just goes to the quintessential essence of it. Because we need to understand who we are as a human being. And if we understand who we are as a human being, we can understand our limitations, and we can also understand our strengths.

And this is what we don't know; we don’t know our strengths, but we finally have learnt our limitations. [Jessica: Yeah.] And the world is frustrated because of that.

Jessica Zweig:

Right. Well, I think it's also gotten a lot more difficult to get in touch with who we truly are because of the sheer noise of life—technology, opportunity. The desire to know oneself is sort of trendy today. And there are all of these different ways in which we can explore that. And I think that, in and of itself is overwhelming for people.

So, how do you tap in? What would be the first step? Because I agree with you; it's really, really simple—but it's still so hard for people.

Prem Rawat:

Yeah. And you know, it's like, in a way, exactly what you said and it's very true. But at the same time, it's like, "Well, I can't smell myself. I can smell the flowers and I can smell the bees and I can smell everything else, but I can't smell me."

And it's like, "Well, but excuse me. You don't know who you are? I mean, you are in you—and you are attached to you. And yet you are so alienated from you. How can that be?" Wait, what's going on here? What mirror are you looking at? Who are you looking at, if you cannot find yourself amidst this huge ocean?

And yet you are absolutely right. People are so caught up in everything else that they have forgotten who they are. And so, our journey must begin with first, establishing base with ourselves. Not with other things, not with other solutions, but with us, with us, just as an individual, just as who you are. Not how you should be—but who you are. [Jessica: Right.]

And begin with that—and that is the very first step.

Prem Rawat speaks with DJs Fresh, Somizi, and Tigi at Metro FM during the Fresh Breakfast weekly show on conflict solutions. He offers pertinent tools for finding peace in a turbulent South Africa. “You are your constant source of peace and joy when you know yourself.”

Onscreen text:
London, England

During his recent visit to London, Prem was interviewed
by Tony Wrighton, host of Zestology, about the
launch of his new book, Peace Is Possible.

Zestology is a popular podcast focused on
wellbeing and life optimization.

The show features some of the world’s most
respected and well-known experts in health,
medicine, science, and wellness.

Tony Wrighton:
Prem, great to see you. We are recording. How are you? [Prem: I’m good; how are you, Tony?] Very good thanks, yeah. Your schedule is pretty mad over the next few days, isn’t it? I know you’re doing an event in Manchester, and you’re doing loads of interviews today.

I thought that one of the interesting things that we could do is to start off by kind of introducing you to Zestology listeners a little bit, for people who have heard about you, but also people who haven’t. [Prem: Sure.] And then, go with some of the work that you’ve done in your life.

And then I’m reading the book at the moment and I’m really enjoying it, and I thought we could look at a couple of the stories in the book. And I need to ask you some questions about the stories as well. [Prem: Yeah, yeah, sure.]

So, let’s start with you, then. When you meet someone at a dinner party and they say, “What do you do,” how do you answer?

Prem Rawat:
Well, “I talk about peace.” And that’s been my endeavor since I was nine years of age; I’ve been talking to people about peace, because I think that’s an important ingredient that we’re missing.

You know, there’s nothing in the world that sets us up to really recognize ourselves, who we are. Socrates talked about this: “Know thyself.” And yet, what is there in this world—once in a while you might come across Socrates, and only by mistake.

And then, what is the value of that, you know? What reflects in our social media; what reflects in our world that we go about every single day that says, “Oh, by the way, you—did you, today, know yourself; do you know yourself today? Do you understand who you are?”

“Do you”—you see the whole world in a way that you have been trained to see: “Yeah, I’ve got to wear clothes; I’ve got to wear this kind of clothing; I’ve got to do this; I’ve got to do that; I’ve got to take this with me; I’ve got to do this; I’ve got to contact this person.” But what about contacting you, you as a human being?

And a lot of times we say, “Okay, why is my world so strange sometimes?” Well, but could it be that you’re looking at a map, and you’re saying, “Well, the map is good. [Tony: Hmmm!] I love the map. And I’ve got where I want to be on this map marked in a big X!”

But the big question is, “Where are you on the map?” Because if you don’t know where you are in the map, that map is useless to you. Because how are you going to plan your navigation to where you want to be? So, everybody is going around on their map marking the X’s, “I want to be here; I want to be here; I want to be here!” But where are you? And who are you?

And so this is the message, because I think that that can profoundly change the world. Because I see that change happen in peoples’ lives, people who are in prisons, people who are in a job like a police officer, where they are just, every minute, really getting hammered by people who are not behaving themselves.

And just imagine the viewpoint that they have. They’re seeing the worst of the worst of the worst of the worst—and every day, every day.

And yet, there is some goodness in this humanity—and each one of us. And we have to do something to bring it out. We have created a society in which, literally, the worst of us comes out without a problem, but we haven’t really created a society in which the best of us comes out.

Tony Wrighton:
I wonder—I’m interested in knowing your perspective on distraction, and distraction in this particular moment in time. Obviously, your beginnings and your upbringing were of a very different culture and a different time as well.

And I feel like distraction is—it’s just worse than ever at the moment, isn’t it? And the technology has a lot to blame for that. And because of that, it’s actually harder to get those reminders—because you’re not with that, kind of, peace and quiet around you. [Prem: And, yeah.]

What’s your perspective on distraction, technology, and how we, kind of, almost take our minds away from those natural reminders that might bring us back to the straight and narrow?

Prem Rawat:
Yeah, that was a great question—because I was asked this question about four months ago, five months ago: “With all this social media and all these crazy things in this world, you know, people are more distracted now than ever,” and da-da-da-da.

So I started thinking about it. At first I agreed with it, and it was, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, we, we need to be centered in ourselves.”

Then I started thinking, “Wait a minute! Buddha talks about ‘Don’t be distracted! Your mind wanders.’ Kabir—incredible poet—he goes, ‘We are constantly wandering with our mind in the three worlds. Sometimes we think about the gods; sometimes we think about people who are on the same level as us, and sometimes we are wondering about all the demons and everything else.’”

Ah, but, why are they talking about that we are distracted? They didn’t have cell phones then. [Tony: Umm-hmm.] They didn’t have all this technology then. Then I realized it is the human nature to get distracted. And what is distraction? Distraction is not distraction; it is being attracted to something else.

So, because it’s about attraction to something else, we get attracted very easily. You know, we are monkeys—somewhere in there—and so something shiny starts to shine, and we start looking at that instead of the road. And, you know, I see that all the time! People are driving, and their one hand is not eating a hamburger, but doing their text message.

Tony Wrighton:
Oh, that’s terrifying, yeah.

Prem Rawat:
It’s terrifying. But they do it. And if you were to stop that person, pull them out, and say, “You know what you were doing is really dangerous?” they will agree with you. But they’ll do it again.

So, to me, it really becomes important to understand that we are going to be distracted, and it is not just the technology that’s doing it. This has been going on since the time of Buddha; this has been going on since the time of Kabir. And it’s the same situation—and this is history, by the way, and it’ll repeat itself again and again and again.

And even though there are a lot of people who are saying, “You know, these things are really not very good!”

And we really need to tone down the technology in a way where human beings can function as a human being, because human beings are being changed in that way. But that’s history too! We’ve been changed; we’ve been changed; we have been changed.

There was a time when the first car started to be on the streets, and people said, “That will never work. It’ll never happen, because the horses are so much better.” Well, it changed; it changed; it changed. Now we can’t even imagine it.

Even though the idea was we would get to places quicker, it doesn’t quite pan out in cities. And the traffic jam is worse; you can watch people on foot walking much faster than you, and arriving at their destination before you do. [Tony: Ummm!]

So, we never ever look at these things and say, “Is this actually working for me? Or not working for me?” We don’t do that. And we need to be reminded, “Hey! What does your report card say for today?” You’ve come home—say it’s seven o’clock in the evening. Do you have a report card? “What happened today?” We don’t! And yet we want a fulfilled life!

Well, unless you’re taking some cognizance of what really happened today, it’s like a car without a speedometer. Well, you will never know how fast you are going. A car with no temperature gauge; you don’t know how hot it’s running.

What is your gauge—at seven o’clock in the evening that says, “You did well”—or, “No, you didn’t do so well”?

Tony Wrighton:
Is that something you’d encourage people to do? Actually, maybe not write a report card at the end of every day, but perhaps sit down and take a couple of moments to say, “Oh, okay, well, what have I done well, which I know normally works?”

Prem Rawat:
Exactly! “Did I—did I spend time with my family? Did I listen to them?” What happened to our listening power; do we listen to each other? No! You have something to say? That’s it! So far you get to say it, you don’t have to listen. And it’s the other person’s problem if they don’t listen, you know? And, that can’t be.

“What did I do—what did I do for me? What did I do for this humanity; what did I do for my family? What did I do that I would love to do again tomorrow? What did I do today that I can wholeheartedly look forward to doing tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that?”

So, where is the gauge? We don’t have a gauge. And then it’s like, okay, you’re—you know, at the end of the day, “Oh my God, I am bushed; I’m tired; I just need to go to sleep.” And then hopefully we’ve got our alarm clock set, and then pull the cover over our head and it’s like, “Yeah, off I go.” But life can’t be like that.

Tony Wrighton:
I mean, you talk about reminders. And it’s occurred to me, reading your book, actually, it’s like a series of little vignettes, little small little stories, and kind of tasters of your life and thoughts. And they are like little reminders; you could pick it up when you want that little bit of inspiration. And some of the stories, some of the chapters are very short.

What is perhaps one of your favorite parts of the book? I mean that I mentioned the parrot story which I liked, and I really liked the chapter about coconuts. [Prem: And, yeah?] I really like coconut, and I eat “coconut everything,” so that’s why I liked that. [Prem: Yeah.]

But, what is something that kind of stands out to you in the book? That kind of resonates with people and resonates with you?

Prem Rawat:
“Whatever you practice most, you get good at it.” And if that’s the way things are—because that’s how it happens! We, whatever we practice the most, we get good at it.

And so, look around in your life: how long does it take you to get upset? So, is that what you’re practicing, getting upset? You know? And how long does it take you to just relax? Well, it’s like, “Huh-uh, breathe deeply; sit down....”

But getting angry? Getting mad? You don’t need to sit down to get mad. You don’t need to breathe deeply to get mad. You can get mad just like that. So we’re practicing that. You’ve got to break the bad habits. If you don’t break the bad habits in your life, those will perpetuate, and they will shape your life and your future.

Tony Wright:
Yeah. I mean, I feel very zen in your company. But do you have any bad habits?

Prem Rawat:
Oh, everybody has bad habits. Everybody has bad habits, and that’s why we need to live our lives consciously.

I didn’t call home yesterday. I was busy; I was coming here. I have an excuse. [Tony: Umm-hmm!] I have an excuse. And so sometimes we get really good at making excuses, and we practice that more than doing what we should have done.

This is what’s important. And I’ve been working on another book. And so, reading that book started to change me—I mean, for the good. I mean, it was like, “Wait a minute; wait a minute, you know, you’ve got to take charge of your life. This is your life!”

Why have you relegated who you are, and what you have to do, to everybody else? Your life is dependent on all these people, but not on you. So where is your strength? Well, is this pillar just shaking with everything, or is it standing firm? Because if it doesn’t, whatever is dependent on this pillar is also going to fall down when this pillar falls down.

And we know that. But in my life, I need, I need to be reminded. And I need to perpetuate good things.

You know, if I was to come onstage—and I make this point very clear—if I say “I’ve already done all of this,” at that point you’re talking to a gorilla. But, because I have to understand that I too have to make the same effort that I am asking other people to make, it makes me relevant. [Tony: Umm!]

There are people who come and who say that “Yes, I have attained the supreme state of being.” [Tony: Yeah.] Well, very hard to talk to—and very hard. And yeah, well, they haven’t, but they’re very hard to talk to. [Tony: Yeah.]

Because there’s a curtain drawn: “It’s done; it’s over! You are not like me and I’m not like you, and so don’t talk to me.” [Tony: Yeah.] No, for me, it’s the other way. I’m just like you, and you’re just like me. And so what I say can be relevant to you, and what you say can be relevant to me.

Tony Wrighton:
Yeah, there’s a great charm in listening to people and following people who kind of admit their frailties. I think Brits are often quite good at doing that. We’re good at putting ourselves down—but in a very self-deprecating way.

So this podcast is about energy and vitality, and there are a couple of questions that I ask people every time. And one is, “What is one recommendation that you would have for people to live their lives with more energy and more vitality?”

Prem Rawat:
For energy and vitality, as long as you’re doing what you were made to do, your body will take care of you. You see, and this we forget: the first doctor is our body. The first lab is our body. It’s constantly performing chemical tests saying, “This is correct; this is correct; this is correct; this is correct; this is correct; this is not right.”

So, even before you see another doctor, you’ve got a doctor built in. And if this doctor is not working right, you’ve got a big problem, because the other doctors have to work with this doctor. This is the doctor that’s going to do all the healing for you. [Tony: Ummm!]

So, if things are correct—you know where you are on that map; you know where you want to go on that map; there’s a routing that’s clear—vitality will be there; enthusiasm will be there. You don’t need the alarm clock; you’ll wake up. Because you’re just so excited about the day.

You know, remember when you were young? It was your birthday or it was Christmas, or something special? And you just couldn’t fall asleep, much less anything else. And you woke up, bam! And there it was.

Well, start collecting things that make sense to you, start collecting things that you’re enthusiastic about, start collecting things that you like in your life—and vitality will follow.

Tony Wrighton:
Yeah. Well, Prem, look, it’s been a real privilege and a pleasure to talk to you. I feel like I’ve had a load of little reminders. [Prem: Good to meet you.] And good luck with the book, and good luck with the bigger global message for peace, which is obviously such an important one. [Prem: Thank you, Tony. Thank you.]

And yeah, thanks for all you do. [Prem: Thank you.]

Interviewer:
Good afternoon, Mr. Rawat, and a very warm welcome.

Prem Rawat:
Thank you for having me, and it’s great to be here.

Interviewer:
Lovely. So, you are an international speaker who presents a practical perspective about the business of life. Why the business of life?

Prem Rawat:
Because we’re involved in so many other businesses—businesses of raising a family, businesses of going around doing whatever we do. And why don’t we focus on the business of life? Because we are alive, and that is the most, absolutely the most important thing.

And when the life isn’t right, nothing else falls into place. When life isn’t happening, when you don’t feel alive, then everything else just seems so static. And so, yes, the business of life—understanding the business of life, getting that business of life perfected—for having everything, everything, in this time that we have on this precious earth.

Interviewer:
And so, how important is it for one to have a balanced life, and what would you say that is?

Prem Rawat:
Well, the question is, life will be balanced if those forces that throw it out of balance are removed. Because life wants the balance. There is a joy; there is a want for joy; there is a want for happiness.

You know, nobody goes to a church or a temple to pray and saying, “Well, I’m too happy.” You know, “Remove some of this happiness.” Because we don't have a limit for how happy we can be. But for sadness, for fear, for anger, for pain, we definitely have very low tolerance.

And so that, right there, is telling us something: go ahead and let that joy of being alive, being here, being now, being happy, being satisfied, being successful, let it all come! Let it all come! Make it happen! And that’s the business of life.

Interviewer:
So, well, happiness is just but for a while, but joy is what you want to achieve. How do we get to that point?

Prem Rawat:
Well, this is a very, very beautiful question, because I think that’s at the crux of so many things. What…what is happiness? A lot of people think that being prosperous, that’s happiness. And they look at prosperity as just one thing, which is, make a lot of money.

But that’s not actually prosperity. Prosperity also includes good health, and also includes that you are happy with what is happening in your life. To be happy, we need hope. To be happy, we need gratitude in our life. To be happy, we need self-reliance—not always thinking of what other people are thinking of us, but what we think of ourselves.

And to be happy, we also need to know ourselves—the very thing, many thousands of years ago, that Socrates said, “Know thyself.” It’s still true today, and maybe even more true today than at any given time.

Because we need to know who we are, what our needs are—what we really, really need—and we are so confused about our wants and our needs. We think that our wants are our needs! That’s not true! There are things that we need, and without those things we wouldn’t even be alive.

But, you know, we go on the tangent of, “Oh, yeah, this would be nice to have; this would be nice to do; this would be nice to have in my life.” That’s okay! But really, you have to understand what is important. And important is you, you being fulfilled.

An unlit candle cannot light another candle. It doesn’t matter what happens. So, you are a lit candle, then you can light other unlit candles.

Interviewer:
So, would you say that living a purposeful life would then result to one living a joyful life?

Prem Rawat:
The joy will come from within you. You cannot create the joy. You cannot invite the joy, to say, “Okay, now I’m ready for you.” When all is right, it is like a flower blooming. When all is right.... You sow the seed, fine. You water it, fine. But then, when the season comes, that seed will germinate.

And all the things have to be right for that seed, regardless of the time. But if everything is right, it will happen. And joy is the same way; happiness is the same way.

You know, there is the happiness that we get that is so temporary. But then there is the happiness that really comes from our heart. A smile because we met a stranger—and a smile when there’s nobody around, and that smile is still there. And that, to me, is the important smile—not the smile of manners, not the smile of external gestures.

Interviewer:
All right. And so, for any of you charged on prosperity—what would you say is true prosperity?

Prem Rawat:
True prosperity is where there is a balance for fulfillment of your dreams, balanced with the fulfillment of your needs—and, at the same time, good health. I mean, look at what’s happening to people today. You know, they work, work, work, work, work, work, work to become rich.

And then they retire and all the money they have earned, they literally give to the hospital, so that they can be cured of the disease that they have accrued trying to make all this money. And that’s no prosperity at the end of the day. Prosperity is a full heart—not just a full pocket, but a full heart. And you will never feel prosperous unless your heart is full too.

And it also requires that you be in peace, that you are stable, that you are good. You know, if you’re sitting in a train and the train is jockeying back and forth, and you’re trying to hold a pot full of water…the thing is, it’s going to be very difficult because you are shaking—so is the train, so is the pot, so is the water.

And if you really want that stability, something has to go stable. In your life, you are the base of your existence, and you have to become stable if you want that pot full of water to be stable. But if everything is just jockeying and jockeying and jockeying, it’s going to be difficult; it’s going to be impossible.

Interviewer:
So, you do mention that, in order for one to understand the business of life, there has to be some storytelling that happens somewhere there. Can you just take me through this? And how do you link the two?

Prem Rawat:
No, the thing is, not just ideas, not just beliefs—but this has to be about knowing, knowing yourself—not believing you could do this, not believing that this exists, not believing—because…You know, one example I give is like, you’re sitting somewhere and you make believe there is a cow.

And so, five people are there or whatever, and they go, “Yeah, yeah, okay, there is a cow”—because it’s all make-believe, there’s no harm done. But if you want milk for your tea, the only kind of milk the make-believe cow can give is make-believe milk. Now, if you want real milk, it’ll have to be a real cow, not a make-believe cow.

And that’s the same thing in life—that we believe in so many things! People say, “Believe in yourself.” I say, no, that isn’t going to help. What you really need to do is know yourself.

Interviewer:
How do you get to that point of knowing yourself?

Prem Rawat:
It begins with a simple introspection. And then, there is a very beautiful way to be able to do this introspection—which is a program that I have. It’s actually called the Peace Education Program. And it has benefited so many people, so many people. It is in prisons; it is in hospice, police, military....

And everybody is discovering that there is such a dimension to themselves, that they are not limited by their own imagination—but there is a whole dimension to understand. That there is a courage in you. And you get in touch with that courage; you get in touch with the joy that is in you; you get in touch with that understanding that is in you.

And when you start to actually, not just believe in these things, but feel every day, the courage that you have, you start to understand who you are. That the components that bring you together, that make up what you are, are powerful, powerful. Kindness is in you, all the time!

Of course, anger and hate, and all these things, are in you all the time—but so is kindness, so is joy, so is understanding, so is love, so is forgiveness. And we have only used one spectrum of ourselves, and the spectrum has been the hate, the non-understanding, the non-believing....

You know, look at me. For fifty years I’ve been talking about peace. And everywhere I go, people go, “Oh, it’s not possible. It’s not possible.” And I just ask them one question—“Okay, so it’s not possible. What is our choice?” Without peace, the fabric of society is going to fall apart. We are falling apart. Nothing is gluing us together.

Interviewer:
Umm-hmm.

Prem Rawat:
And this falling apart is getting worse every day. We’re killing people who have done nothing wrong. [Interviewer: Umm-hmm!] And we are fueling the fire of revenge. Little children who are orphaned have hate—hate and hopelessness—in their eyes, when those little eyes should be full of hope, should be full of joy. And so, we have no choice but to court peace in our lives.

Interviewer:
So, the message of peace that you are spreading, how has it been received?

Prem Rawat:
Well, people who understand it... and believe me, I respect this in people, because it requires a change in thinking…people have been thinking a certain way, “It’s not possible.” And, you know, the thing is, I actually respect them for that. Because, yes, you have looked at the horizon and there is no ship out there. And so you feel alone and you feel desolate.

But one of the things that we have not done is look at ourselves. We have looked at the world; we have looked outside, but we have not looked on the inside. And when we start to look on the inside.... And this is the message—that it’s not just my message—this is the message that has echoed through the years, through the ages, from one civilization to the other civilization.

You know, and another way to just look at this is that, a long time ago we came out of the jungle. We were all in the jungle, and we came out of the jungle and we started the practice of farming. Farming not only brought us all kinds of different things, but it brought us the very thing we called civilization.

And as civilization came to be, we said, “We don’t want to practice the law of the jungle.” The law of the jungle is very simple: big fish eats little fish. And that’s it! And we said, “No! We don’t want that. We don’t want that. We don’t want that in our civilization—because that won’t work in this civilization. It works in the jungle—but it won’t work in civilization.”

So we built a wall around us, and the wall separated the laws of the jungle and the law of civilization. Well, unfortunately, this wall that uses the mortar of peace, the bricks of kindness, understanding—this wall has been breached. It hasn’t been maintained. And it is falling apart. And the laws of the jungle are permeating our civilization. [Interviewer: Hmm.]

Pretty soon there is going to be no difference between civilization and the jungle. And all that transformation of going from the jungle to civilization would have been for nothing. And this is what’s happening everywhere you look. Little fish are trying to be big fish.

You look at bullying—which is such a crucial problem starting to appear in this world—and what is that bullying? Bullying is, just for a very short period of a little time, the little fish wants to experience what it is like to be the big fish. [Interviewer: Hmm!] And yet, the rule of the jungle is, you do that and you will get eaten.

Interviewer:
So now, tell me, you are on the 16 Days of Activism tour to South Africa. Why this tour? Can you just talk us through this initiative?

Prem Rawat:
Well, I have been coming to South Africa for quite a long time, and I have felt.... And the first time that I came to South Africa, it was—I was shocked. I was really shocked. I was a teenager—and I was shocked. I had not experienced this. I had heard about apartheid, but when I came, it was like, “Oh my God, this is…this is terrible!”

And I was actually asked that, you know, “You cannot have mixed meetings…that you have to have separate meetings, you know, for separate color.” And I said, “Sorry, I’m not going to do that.” And the consequence of that was that I was blacklisted!

Of course, they didn’t want to do anything to me because it would have caused a major incident—because, arresting a teenager....So I was followed everywhere I went. I was blacklisted. When I applied for my visa to come back to South Africa, it was denied. And it was only after the apartheid started to dissipate that I could start coming back to South Africa.

So, I see what was happening here. And this is horrible; this is terrible. And there’s so much that needs to be made up for because of this. [Interviewer: Hmm!] But I also see that it’s not going to happen just by lectures and talks—that people need to really understand what kindness is. That revenge is one thing—and forgiveness.... Because one of the things that I talk about is, “What is forgiveness?” [Interviewer: Mmm!]

A lot of people think forgiveness is to forgive a person’s mistake. Well, you can’t. There are things that have been done to those people that they cannot forgive. They cannot say, “Oh, okay, fine, I accept what you did.”

But forgiveness is for you to make a decision that you don’t want to still continue being hurt by the actions of that person, and you want to move on; you want to go on. You are exercising your power to move forward, rather than to try to accept the mistakes of another person.

And when we look at that forgiveness as the power to move on that you bestow upon yourself, then the forgiveness takes on a doable meaning…that, “Yes, I want to move on. I don’t want to be a victim of this any more. And I am alive; the breath comes into me—and this is an incredible blessing, and a call for me to keep going. And I will do that bidding.”

Interviewer:
That’s lovely. And so you started on the 6th, and it’s ending on the 15th, the tour, right? [PR: Yes.] How has it been so far, from the day that you’ve covered?

Prem Rawat:
I…I have to tell you, you know—I love it; I love it. Because when I tell people these things.... And what I’m really bringing to the people is fifty years of my experience. You know, I started speaking about peace when I was four years old—at nine years old I actually had to shoulder the responsibility—my father passed away.

And, whatever he was doing fell on my shoulders to carry on. [Interviewer: Hmm, mmm.] And when I bring that experience, and the “aha moment” happens for people, you have no idea how amazing that “aha moment” is. Because it’s like, I have helped light another candle. And that person now has the capability of lighting another candle.

And I…I really see that South Africa can be a shining beacon in these stormy waters, for the whole world! I mean, South Africa has something incredible—if they could do it, they have something incredible to teach the whole world. That it is not just about money; that it is not just about fame; that it is not about those things, but it is about the humanity of human beings.

The most separated come together. The most hated join hands for a better future for all of us, and our children, and our grandchildren, and the ages yet to come on this earth.

Interviewer:
Yeah, indeed. So, you are one of three leaders to receive the International BrandLaureate Lifetime Achievement Award—of course, alongside our former president elect, President Nelson Mandela, and Hillary Clinton of the U.S. How did this come about?

Prem Rawat:
Well, this person in Malaysia recognized what I had been doing. He had come, and he had heard what I had to say. And he also saw that the influence of what I was saying and the influence of what I was doing through my Peace Education Program was so powerful that he invited me to come. And, I mean, it was a surprise for me. I didn’t know I was going to get it.

But, he invited me. And he’s a wonderful person, and a great friend now, of course—we have met many times now. And he wanted to present me with this award. And so I very gladly accepted.

Interviewer:
Lovely! And you are a man of many talents, eh? Even a successful pilot, I’m told. So, what do you enjoy doing the most? Is it music, photography? Is it art?

Prem Rawat:
Well, what I enjoy doing the most is what I am doing right now—[Interviewer: Mmm!] hopefully, lighting candles. I fly because I have to get around the world—and so that’s one thing that I have to do. So wherever I go, I end up flying there. [Interviewer: Umm-hmm?] And, places like....

Interviewer:
When do you get to sing?

Prem Rawat:
I…I get to sing from my heart a song of life, [Interviewer: Uh-huh?] a song of joy, a song of certainty, a song of hope. [Interviewer: Mmm!] And, that is an incredible song.

In my spare time I really like photography; I like cooking, and I like doing art. It’s just an expression of what I sometimes feel.

So, you know, there’s many, many things but, really, what I enjoy doing is talking to people.

Interviewer:
Thank you so much Prem, for your time. It was really lovely chatting with you. Thank you so much.

Prem Rawat:
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Interviewer:
You are welcome, and bye!

Prem Rawat:
Goodbye.